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	<title>Comments on: Curing the oil crisis:- Starch or Sugar based Ethanol versus Cellulosic Ethanol</title>
	<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol</link>
	<description>Not Your Average Geek</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 10:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: theDuck</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1609</link>
		<dc:creator>theDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 01:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1609</guid>
		<description>@Ryan - My intention here is not to pooh-pooh ethanol as a solution, but just to say that it is not, at least not under current methods of growing the feedstock and producing the ethanol, going to be a bolt-on solution for the looming energy crisis.

I don't know if you've ever read 'twilight in the desert' but the contentions in that book are enough to scare any fair minded person out of their complacency. Peak Oil has well and truly come and gone, and we must be prepared very quickly if we're to avert an economic catastrophe. 

It's also enough to make my mouth water re: the opportunities approaching for the sugar industry.

I actually first joined the sugar industry 10+ years back because of my passion for alternative energy - I could see massive potential there. Unfortunately it's a bit difficult for a researcher / engineer / scientist like myself to maintain a career path / obtain a good income within the research arm of the Australian sugar industry so I'm now putting that passion aside and moving to the mining industry.. ironically.

I read the Khosla website and are familliar with their work. Personally I feel that producing ethanol from maize is a ridiculous waste of resources and tantamount to environmental vandalism when C4 plants like sugarcane can do a much better job with far fewer inputs and greater yields. 

I'm leaving the industry with the knowledge that it's likely that we have a massive future. 

At times I wonder whether that future will be realised within the industry. 

It seems to me that the last 100 years has been spent breeding a top-heavy beauracracy (within the milling and growing sectors) with inertia, stonewalling and complacency as central tenets of their management philosophy - that's frustrating when you just want to get things done, and it's the reason that we've been losing good people in droves.

M</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ryan - My intention here is not to pooh-pooh ethanol as a solution, but just to say that it is not, at least not under current methods of growing the feedstock and producing the ethanol, going to be a bolt-on solution for the looming energy crisis.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve ever read &#8216;twilight in the desert&#8217; but the contentions in that book are enough to scare any fair minded person out of their complacency. Peak Oil has well and truly come and gone, and we must be prepared very quickly if we&#8217;re to avert an economic catastrophe. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s also enough to make my mouth water re: the opportunities approaching for the sugar industry.</p>
<p>I actually first joined the sugar industry 10+ years back because of my passion for alternative energy - I could see massive potential there. Unfortunately it&#8217;s a bit difficult for a researcher / engineer / scientist like myself to maintain a career path / obtain a good income within the research arm of the Australian sugar industry so I&#8217;m now putting that passion aside and moving to the mining industry.. ironically.</p>
<p>I read the Khosla website and are familliar with their work. Personally I feel that producing ethanol from maize is a ridiculous waste of resources and tantamount to environmental vandalism when C4 plants like sugarcane can do a much better job with far fewer inputs and greater yields. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m leaving the industry with the knowledge that it&#8217;s likely that we have a massive future. </p>
<p>At times I wonder whether that future will be realised within the industry. </p>
<p>It seems to me that the last 100 years has been spent breeding a top-heavy beauracracy (within the milling and growing sectors) with inertia, stonewalling and complacency as central tenets of their management philosophy - that&#8217;s frustrating when you just want to get things done, and it&#8217;s the reason that we&#8217;ve been losing good people in droves.</p>
<p>M</p>
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		<title>By: racrac</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1604</link>
		<dc:creator>racrac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1604</guid>
		<description>Hello! I've read from an article that cellulose must first be separated from the plant material through acid hydrolysis and then the extracted cellulose will be fermented by the Baker's yeast. Can this extraction process produce high percentage yield of ethanol?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello! I&#8217;ve read from an article that cellulose must first be separated from the plant material through acid hydrolysis and then the extracted cellulose will be fermented by the Baker&#8217;s yeast. Can this extraction process produce high percentage yield of ethanol?</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1601</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 02:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1601</guid>
		<description>Some of these figures are good. But I can tell you that Brazil currently uses 15.6M/Ha to grow about 430 million tonne of sugarcane. That is about 4% of Brazil agricultural land and for those of you who are wondering, none of which is Brazilian rain forest. By 2020 Brazil is expected to hit the billion tonne of sugarcane mark and produce around 65 billion litres of ethanol.  Much of this expansion is at the expense of under productive grazing land and no rain forest. Currently in Queensland alone, uses 2% of its agricultural land for cropping, the rest is marginal farming. Well not all but a lot. The question is could we follow Brazil? I think it’s possible and I definitely think it is better than mining coal. www.kholslaventures.com is one VC company that's making inroads into the thanol industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of these figures are good. But I can tell you that Brazil currently uses 15.6M/Ha to grow about 430 million tonne of sugarcane. That is about 4% of Brazil agricultural land and for those of you who are wondering, none of which is Brazilian rain forest. By 2020 Brazil is expected to hit the billion tonne of sugarcane mark and produce around 65 billion litres of ethanol.  Much of this expansion is at the expense of under productive grazing land and no rain forest. Currently in Queensland alone, uses 2% of its agricultural land for cropping, the rest is marginal farming. Well not all but a lot. The question is could we follow Brazil? I think it’s possible and I definitely think it is better than mining coal. <a href="http://www.kholslaventures.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.kholslaventures.com</a> is one VC company that&#8217;s making inroads into the thanol industry.</p>
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		<title>By: AAA</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1358</link>
		<dc:creator>AAA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1358</guid>
		<description>This has to be one of the best articles/analysis Ive seen which is great. I enjoyed reading something from someone who isnt afraid to do some analysis from first principles.

in regard to the comparison of burning fossil fuel vs biofuel. The important thing is the ratio of carbon below ground level to that above. Once its above ground level, it is metabolised, burnt or what have you into CO2, whether its in forests or whatever. Biofuels are about no net increase in the carbon above the ground in the carbon cycle. Biofuels also encourage the growth of plants which are the most efficient transformers of CO2 into biomass. (changes to biodiversity another issue).

Starving people are not starving because of a lack of food. Its a lack of food in the right place. When the average body mass index in Australia drops to 18-25, then start telling me there is not enough food or sugar. Just legislate the max sugar in soft drinks from 11 down to 5%.  Expensive sugar will do our health no end of good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has to be one of the best articles/analysis Ive seen which is great. I enjoyed reading something from someone who isnt afraid to do some analysis from first principles.</p>
<p>in regard to the comparison of burning fossil fuel vs biofuel. The important thing is the ratio of carbon below ground level to that above. Once its above ground level, it is metabolised, burnt or what have you into CO2, whether its in forests or whatever. Biofuels are about no net increase in the carbon above the ground in the carbon cycle. Biofuels also encourage the growth of plants which are the most efficient transformers of CO2 into biomass. (changes to biodiversity another issue).</p>
<p>Starving people are not starving because of a lack of food. Its a lack of food in the right place. When the average body mass index in Australia drops to 18-25, then start telling me there is not enough food or sugar. Just legislate the max sugar in soft drinks from 11 down to 5%.  Expensive sugar will do our health no end of good.</p>
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		<title>By: meoow</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1319</link>
		<dc:creator>meoow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1319</guid>
		<description>duuz anyone noe where i can find the production steps in volved in making ethanol from sugercane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>duuz anyone noe where i can find the production steps in volved in making ethanol from sugercane</p>
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		<title>By: theDuck</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1239</link>
		<dc:creator>theDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 17:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1239</guid>
		<description>oh - and - by the way - the answer to the question you were seaching when you came to my site (how mant tonnes cane per hectare in India) should be somewhere between 40 and 60 tonnes from what I have observed in my travels - it's pretty low mostly due to poor agronomics and lack of water.

Matt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh - and - by the way - the answer to the question you were seaching when you came to my site (how mant tonnes cane per hectare in India) should be somewhere between 40 and 60 tonnes from what I have observed in my travels - it&#8217;s pretty low mostly due to poor agronomics and lack of water.</p>
<p>Matt</p>
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		<title>By: theDuck</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1238</link>
		<dc:creator>theDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 17:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1238</guid>
		<description>Hi Ryan!

Thanks for your comments!

I'm not an expert on mill technology - but that does seem sensible (after all my hypotheticals above ignore the fact that mills need steam to run). What do you reckon the relative usable energy output would be?

Matt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ryan!</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not an expert on mill technology - but that does seem sensible (after all my hypotheticals above ignore the fact that mills need steam to run). What do you reckon the relative usable energy output would be?</p>
<p>Matt</p>
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		<title>By: ryan tauro</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1237</link>
		<dc:creator>ryan tauro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1237</guid>
		<description>why not use dry bagasse in gasifiers and run STIG(steam injected gas turbines) to produce cheap enviornment friendly electricity&#38; leave alcohol production to the sucrose and molasses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why not use dry bagasse in gasifiers and run STIG(steam injected gas turbines) to produce cheap enviornment friendly electricity&amp; leave alcohol production to the sucrose and molasses.</p>
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		<title>By: theDuck</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1219</link>
		<dc:creator>theDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 04:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1219</guid>
		<description>But the N problem is not one which is insurmountable (at least with Sugar Cane). You can plant legumes like soybeans in between each ratoon of cane - basically as soon as you harvest the crop, you cultivate the inter-row and plant soybeans. 

With the right rhizobial innoculants such rotational cropping systems can produce pretty much &lt;a href="http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&#038;ct=res&#038;cd=3&#038;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springerlink.com%2Findex%2FVH41821Q0884Q5W7.pdf&#038;ei=SuP5Rvu9OJqOgwOnwPG_Cw&#038;usg=AFQjCNHX5D74K3EejX2lQct_4U-L21HZSw&#038;sig2=2-bong9Y85h2d46c_61P0Q" rel="nofollow"&gt;all the nitrogen a cane crop needs&lt;/a&gt;, at least in tropical agriculture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the N problem is not one which is insurmountable (at least with Sugar Cane). You can plant legumes like soybeans in between each ratoon of cane - basically as soon as you harvest the crop, you cultivate the inter-row and plant soybeans. </p>
<p>With the right rhizobial innoculants such rotational cropping systems can produce pretty much <a href="http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&#038;ct=res&#038;cd=3&#038;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springerlink.com%2Findex%2FVH41821Q0884Q5W7.pdf&#038;ei=SuP5Rvu9OJqOgwOnwPG_Cw&#038;usg=AFQjCNHX5D74K3EejX2lQct_4U-L21HZSw&#038;sig2=2-bong9Y85h2d46c_61P0Q" rel="nofollow">all the nitrogen a cane crop needs</a>, at least in tropical agriculture.</p>
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		<title>By: theDuck</title>
		<link>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1218</link>
		<dc:creator>theDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 04:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.utheguru.com/curing-the-oil-crisis-starch-or-sugar-based-ethanol-versus-cellulosic-ethanol#comment-1218</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ah yes.. but you see, that fails to consider the source of the CO2 which you are burning JLH - in the case of agricultural crops, the plant only releases the CO2 which it has taken in during the growing process - so crop based alternative energy (assuming you also use plant based feedstocks for the production, harvest and processing of the crop) is largely CO2 neutral&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But I agree, nitrogen fertilisers put a significant spanner in the whole CO2 / energy balance equation (here in Aus the majority of N fertilisers are produced using natural gas as a feedstock).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Realistically I think we're pretty much stuffed long term whichever way we go - if we want to be able to keep driving around in the little social cocoons we call cars, we're gonna have to realise the true value of that luxury pretty soon. :-D&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah yes.. but you see, that fails to consider the source of the CO2 which you are burning JLH - in the case of agricultural crops, the plant only releases the CO2 which it has taken in during the growing process - so crop based alternative energy (assuming you also use plant based feedstocks for the production, harvest and processing of the crop) is largely CO2 neutral</p>
<p>But I agree, nitrogen fertilisers put a significant spanner in the whole CO2 / energy balance equation (here in Aus the majority of N fertilisers are produced using natural gas as a feedstock).</p>
<p>Realistically I think we&#8217;re pretty much stuffed long term whichever way we go - if we want to be able to keep driving around in the little social cocoons we call cars, we&#8217;re gonna have to realise the true value of that luxury pretty soon. <img src='http://www.utheguru.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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